The thoughts, the notions, the TRUTH?

Discussion in 'PC' started by Klokinator, Jan 28, 2013.

  1. Klokinator

    Klokinator Raincoat Zombie

    Hello everyone, I’m Klokinator, that guy who made the mod setup guide and the barely updated mods listing. I’m also the guy who many months back (nearly a year ago) made a thread that was very critical of some of Redigit’s decisions. It was probably the most pointed thread on the topic and it garnered a lot of attention. At some point, I had it closed because I thought it represented the feelings of the community on both sides quite well and it was turning into a repetitive hate-fest.

    Some time afterwards, Redigit made a Dev thread titled “My Fellow Terrarians Part 2” that, in my opinion, answered just about all the points made in my original thread, and in doing so removed most of my accusations and proved that overall, he’s a nice guy. I am now making this thread to once again bring forward the different opinions that the community has and my opinions as well. Keep in mind, none of the points brought out in this post will be necessarily true, but I would not bring any of them up without some sort of reason that was provable. Redigit of course, has the right to post and agree/disagree with anything I say, although to be fair most of my opinions are in his favor, unlike last time.

    Anyway, I shall now begin.


    Redigit has made mistakes, especially involving PR.
    We all know this is true, and Redigit has also agreed that he has made mistakes. Nobody is perfect and we do not fault him for that. (Much.)


    Redigit has made some very odd moves that lead many to question his intentions.
    This is another statement that pretty much anyone can and will agree with. Not only with PR, but making too many promises he couldn’t keep, such as promising features in Terraria he didn’t implement and etc. Some would also argue that whatever happened that made the whole team disbanding may have been his fault, but I neither agree nor disagree, as I have seen little evidence for one side or the other.


    Because of the decisions he made, the community has seen a huge continental divide over his actions.
    Again, everyone can attest to this. Many people hate(d) his guts and (this included me at one point) threaten(ed) to boycott all of his future games, or sue him, or some other ridiculous notion. Others will stay on “his side”, and say that he never had bad intentions and this was all a huge misunderstanding and everything is puppies and kitties. I don’t know if I agree with the puppies and kitties, but I’ll agree that I don’t think most of what has happened was intentional. My opinion will be explained as this post progresses.

    These are all the rather reasonable assumptions everyone can agree on. Redigit made mistakes, he made some weird choices, and his actions have divided the community. Let me now tell you why, in spite of my scathing criticism the last time I made a post of this size, I am now firmly on his side for the unforeseeable future.


    Terraria was hacked early on, forcing an early release date.
    Let me tell you something, I develop games as well, though certainly not to the extent of Terraria. When I develop a game, I want to get it to a certain level of… ‘polish’, before having other people play it. Redigit already had made a name for himself with SMBX, and he had quite a lot of fans. After it was shut down by Nintendo, his fans no doubt were eagerly awaiting the release of his next project. Word came around that he was working on a “sort of 2D Minecraft” and the buzz exploded. At some point, he was just getting the core of the game down and content was being added, when someone (I don’t know who) hacked the game and leaked it to the public.

    Imagine for a second that you are Redigit. You’re working on a game that is amazing and downright genre defining, and you just want to be sure that at some point when you release the game, it is perfect. Unfortunately, someone hacks your game after only 4 months of development (Mind you, that is insanely short for a game of Terraria’s level, it really shows his skill as a programmer that it was in such a good state anyway) and you now have two options; rush a release and try to fix the bugs later on, or let people badmouth your mostly unfinished game that was hacked. (Believe me, people will do it and this can kill publicity and popularity.)

    Redigit, being such a jolly good sport (And no doubt the whole team discussed the issue) decided to plug what holes he could, rush a release on Steam, and update from there. In fact, he pretty much had to promise free content updates since the game was released in such shambles. (Though I think he would have done so anyway, I can't prove for or against this assumption.)


    The early release backfired on him in a manner, resulting in massive popularity and huge community expectations.
    Once he had released the game, it was an immense success financially. The game received 50,000 downloads on launch day and 200,000 in a week after it was released. As of now, it stands at 2,000,000 downloads and beyond, still rocketing upward to this day. (I personally bought about 13 copies for myself and the members of my forum.) What this means, in essence, is that millions of people now play Terraria. When your project is a huge unique undertaking like Terraria, you become attached to it. It’s your baby, in some ways. This is why people prefer indie games over Big Name games a lot of the time; because those who make indie games genuinely love making games and often aren’t really in it for the money.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying Redigit isn’t in it for the money. He probably likes money, and hell, I like money too. I like money a lot, and so do you. My point is, Redigit started Terraria and had an idea for a really fun game that he and his friends could play together, and they could share it with the world. He had dozens, hundreds, even thousands of ideas he wanted to implement into the game, but all of this came to a crashing halt when the game was hacked well ahead of time.

    Now, once he had released the game, suggestions came pouring, flooding, titanically crashing into his forum. No longer was this his pet game, it was a game that people had developed expectations for, and they expected him to fix what wouldn’t have been broken had he put more time into the game before it was forcibly released. Basically, he was starting to feel unhappy at the very moment he had released the game, because the project was no longer his.

    Next, he released a huge update for the game. I’m sure most people here will know of version 1.1, the one that added health regeneration and things of that sort. However, upon releasing the game, more comments and criticism came pouring in. Suddenly, people started feeling entitled. While he may have made the game differently and a large part of it would have been different with more pre-release development time, releasing it suddenly meant that the updates couldn’t massively change the game content without making a lot of people used to the core mechanics angry.

    Then came the next release, version 1.2, that version that you may recall had the Christmas specials and added a lot of hardmode content. Guess what? Now people were complaining even more. Suddenly people started asking “Redigit, why did you add ______ instead of ______?” or “Redigit, why didn’t you add ________? This game is no fun without __________!” When you have two million players, people will get angry no matter what you do, and this is one of the reasons I can hardly blame him for what happened.


    Life had many sudden changes and these made him question Terraria’s development.”
    How many people on these forums have ever had a baby? I’m willing to bet that the vast majority of forumgoers here are aged 21 and under. Yes, Redigit knew he had a baby coming for many months, but he had underplanned for it (Trust me, it happens for your first child, regardless of how well off you are.) and when it arrived, other things happened as well. I don’t know what happened behind the scenes, so I can only hypothesize. Somehow, a lot of the team members decided to move on. Was this Redigit’s fault? Perhaps, perhaps not. Tiy moved on and decided to form Chucklefish, a “potentially competing game”, as Redigit put it. Blue left for reasons he’s stated in a post on the Starbound forums. Other members… who knows, really.

    Now, he had a baby, his game was not what he had envisioned, his team members were gone… at this point in time, what would you do? You see, he still wanted and wants to work on Terraria, but without the original team, it’s just him. He alone, and he hasn’t finished Terraria yet (I’m talking about the “necessary” things, like better multiplayer support and etc, not new content) and it can never be the game he wanted it to be.

    Let’s hypothesize for a minute, and say that prior to releasing Terraria and prior to it being hacked, he had a multitude of ideas under his belt. We know he did, there’s even a wiki page about it. Well, at the time there was no wiki page. Perhaps the linear armor and item system we’re used to was going to be phased out by something else. Perhaps he had a secret plan to add in teleporters to new dimensions, or something like that. You know, he could have had any number of ideas for the game to travel towards, but a stopper was put on all of that when it was released early. Now, we all know (Well, some of us anyway…) that Redigit loves SURPRISING people. He likes putting in features that people hadn’t thought of, features that make the game quirky and interesting. But damn, have you looked at the Suggestion forum? There’s probably 50 or more pages of suggestions, not to mention countless modding suggestions and everything else people expect him to put in the game.

    So, if he wants to surprise you, as a player, since that’s what he loves doing… what is left for him to surprise you with? Really, ask yourself that. Sit for 5 minutes and brainstorm as hard as you can something interesting that would really make Terraria more fun, then go to the forum index and type a few keywords in. Chances are, it’s been suggested, making it more of an “Oh look, he added that feature that member #9001 suggested!” instead of “Wow that feature is so cool, I’m so glad he made it!”



    My point is, Redigit wants to make Terraria and he wants to make it fun. If you expect something to be put in, and it gets put in, you’re not surprised, you’re just satisfied. Redigit doesn’t want you to be satisfied, he wants you to be surprised and overjoyed, and that, my fellow Terrarians, is why he stated that he was ending development on Terraria and possibly working on a new game.


    In some corner of Redigit’s mind, Terraria is still a game he loves and wants to update, but moving to a new game is the only way to keep you surprised.
    That’s what all this boils down to. Redigit can’t satisfy the populace of TO without half of them hating any move he makes, he can’t surprise you because everything he can add has already been suggested and re-suggested a thousand times, or what he CAN surprise you with is likely of so little note that it’ll get more of a nose wrinkle reaction than anything else.

    Now ask yourself, whose fault is this? What could Redigit have done that would have altered the fate of Terraria? What can he DO, even now? Look at the future for just a minute, past the bridge of your nose. Starbound looms on the horizon, a game that will cast a massive shadow on Terraria very soon. Everything that Terraria did wrong has most likely been corrected by Starbound in some form, it’s been promised basically infinite content updates and DLC (To a large degree, and as a sidenote I really like the way they’ve planned that out.) and best of all, the game won’t be released early so it will get actually polished before release.

    Just look at it. Terraria, no matter how much Redigit updates it, will still be the inferior predecessor to Starbound. The coding is sloppy, it needs a total rewrite. Many of the core mechanics would have to be changed slowly over time, over multiple updates. (Otherwise people would get mad about basically having the whole game rewritten in one update, creating a new game entirely than what they paid for, though I believe Redigit could and would pull it off.) Really, Terraria is just a giant slug, slowing down Redigit’s progress. If Redigit, right now, ditched Terraria, and started coding on the “new game idea” that he mentioned in the My Fellow Terrarians thread, he could potentially get a new game out a few months after Starbound was released, maybe longer. He could assemble a new team, he could write the code, get the sprites going, and all that he would have to do is abandon the old Terraria.

    Don’t get me wrong, Terraria is special to me. I know, my measly 175 hours (Online play. I actually have spent waaaaay longer than that in offline play.) don’t stack up to some members, but man this game is amazing! And if nothing else, I still think Terraria’s music is better than what I’ve heard of Starbound’s music. I want it to get a modding API, and perfected multiplayer, and lots of other things, but at the same time, I kind of want Redigit to move on.

    That is the essence of this post. If you want a TL;DR, here it is:
    -Terraria will never be the perfected amazing game it could have been prior to being hacked.
    -Redigit could vastly improve Terraria and fix everything about it, but that would take time, resources, and it would still be overshadowed by Starbound.
    -The only way Redigit could top Starbound with Terraria is a complete code rewrite and overhaul of the game’s systems, in which case he might as well make a new game because this would piss a lot of people off due to all the core mechanics suddenly changing.
    -Redigit wants to surprise you and for you to have fun playing his games, but the fun is based on surprises, and he can’t surprise you with Terraria because everything he could do with the game (for the most part) has been suggested hundreds of times, therefore you’ll probably expect anything he could put into the game.

    Therefore, I believe the best thing Redigit could do right now is patch up a few holes with Terraria, polish it up a bit, then move on to his next game as quickly as humanly possible. Perhaps you agree, perhaps you don’t. I do not believe Redigit wanted anything to turn out the way it has. He didn’t mean for his team to disband, he didn’t mean for his game to get hacked, and a child in his life further complicated the mud he was already sunk into. Therefore, before you hurl accusations, before you accuse him of doing everything for the money, (A sentiment I once shared, I might add) and before you think less of him as a human being, know that you got hours and hours of entertainment from a game he made, and you paid $10 or less. Appreciate what you received, and understand that if he has to move onto his next project, it’s because he actually has to.

    - I’m Klok, and thanks for reading.


    Sidenote (open)
    Also, I didn’t really see the need to bring the console release into this. I believe that he simply allowed 505Games to take over the console port because he wasn’t particularly interested in doing it himself, and he has his own vision of where he’ll be taking the game in the updates to the PC version, which is the original version. The PC version is his game and it’s his baby, therefore he still wants to retain the exclusive rights to it which is completely reasonable.

    He has explicitly stated that he will not port console content to the PC version, most likely because it wouldn’t necessarily be the sort of content he would make himself. I’m tired of people making him out to be a bad guy for having someone else take over the console port, it’s just a stupid argument, frankly. If you’re going to bring the console port into this thread, please do so in a reasonable and well thought out manner. The console port, in my opinion, is nothing but good news for Terraria as PC gamers have mods and the console gamers will only have a few exclusive things. As a PC user, you’re still the ‘winner’ so please stop complaining.
     
  2. PowerCosmic

    PowerCosmic Werewolf

    You're over-analyzing the situation, my man, and making some rather interesting assumptions. You're assuming that Starbound is gonna be this grand, massively amazing game that will overshadow Terraria. Maybe, maybe not - but let's not pretend any of that is cemented. Let's talk about Starbound when it's actually available, otherwise it's pointless speculation.

    It's also pointless speculation to bother and try to wonder what Red's motives are in regards to polishing the game. Further, it's pointless to try and tell him what you think he should do with it. It's not your game. You don't even own the game, you purchased a $10 license from Steam to play the game.

    So...

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. Klokinator

    Klokinator Raincoat Zombie

    And you're assuming it won't.

    I can agree to this, though the unnecessary gif detracts entirely from any arguments you just made and makes you look rather... immature.

    Is it pointless? Last time I made a thread like this, he posted a dev thread that almost looked like it was pointedly answering every point that I specifically brought up. Also, this time I'm not making this thread as a "Redigit, pay attention!" but as a "Community, pay attention!". People have a lot of expectations and with the divide going on in the community, people need to start reshaping their expectations.

    I really don't care whether Redigit reads this or not, the only reason I'd want him to read it is to fix any mistakes I made with the timeline of events.
     
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  4. PowerCosmic

    PowerCosmic Werewolf

    Not at all, I've alluded to the fact that I'd prefer not to assume anything at this point, though that has to do more with me not wanting to get burned by hype. If it's a great game, then that's my money straight into Tiy's pocket on Day 1. If it's not, then I've lost nothing. I've learned from mistakes made in the past not to get too excited about anything.


    I wasn't necessarily trying to be immature, so you have my apology for that. Though I do think the gif is a pretty accurate representation of how a decent portion of the 'community' will react (not all, probably not even most, but a very vocal portion, I'm sure..) , which is unfortunate, because you do some good points. That was never in question. People are going to have a lot of expectations and, given how members of the community have acted a year ago and as of late, it's safe to say that some of them aren't willing to listen to others. Red is a crooked, evil, lying monster to them, because he ""robbed"" them of $10 or less, and the fact that he's """sold out""" to a console port makes him the goddamn devil. You can't reason with those people.


    Fair enough!
     
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  5. Interittus

    Interittus Dark Caster

    Screw those haters :)
     
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  6. PowerCosmic

    PowerCosmic Werewolf

    I'll concur with that!

    I've spent a few hundred hours myself playing the multiplayer with a couple of different friends, so as far as I'm concerned, I've had a pretty fulfilling experience with Terraria.
    That being said, I want Redigit to work on the game a little bit more, as long as he seems willing to. I realize this next statement might seem like contradiction of my statement about assumptions, but I'm not necessarily going into this with any expectations.. I just get the feeling that with Red coming back, being more prolific than usual, taking suggestions.... there could be something VERY interesting on the horizon if people play their cards right.
     
  7. Jeckel

    Jeckel Little Red Fire Ant Staff Member

    I seriously tried to write a well thought out and detailed response, but I just don't have the energy to respond, yet again, to the same tired old "pro-Red" arguments, especially when the whole long post just turned out to be a "why bother with Terraria, because woopty-fing-do STARBOUND!!!!!"

    All I can say at this point:

    The game wasn't "hacked", the alpha was leaked. Rushing an unfinished game out the door because of some unfounded and imaginary fear of pirates, bad publicity, loss of sales, or whatever was the first big mistake Red made.

    The great sales and huge popularity was a backfire? Bullshit. As Red and plenty of developers have shown, it would have been quite easy for Red to ignore all the people endlessly chattering about what he should or shouldn't put in the game. Whether one download or one billion downloads, follow the design document you layed out before you began making the game, simple as that... because you did create a design document before you even opened your IDE, right? If your vision of a game can't withstand some anonymous nobodies typing text on the internet, then maybe your focus, resolve, and/or vision wasn't as well thought out as you first assumed.

    Yea, every update is going to be hated by some portion of the user base. Welcome to software development?

    If surprise is so important, then software development is the wrong line of work. The goal is to create extensible, stable, and fun software, not to surprise people. No one was surprised when Civilization 4 had tweaked mechanics of Civilization 3, no one was surprised when SimCity 4 focused on city building simulation, no one was surprised when Fallout 3 expansions took them into desolate wastelands to kill mutated monsters. Surprises aren't always fun and fun in no way requires a surprise.

    Lastly, I just have to say that I am so sick of people saying "Starbound" like it is an answer to any Terraria discussion. Whether Starbound is the best or worst game ever, it doesn't change that this is the Terraria forums and Terraria discussions desire Terraria related arguments. If someone wants to polish Starbound's joystick, I believe they have a couple forums of their own.
     
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  8. Klokinator

    Klokinator Raincoat Zombie

    The point isn't about how amazing starbound will/won't be, it's about how it does pose a threat in the near future. Nobody can really argue this. If it falls on its face, so be it.

    The other points are quite good arguments.
     
  9. sera-miner

    sera-miner Dark Caster

    I think I have to agree with you that terraria is kind of over/we should be moving on. I know updates will be cool and all, but there is nothing really that can improve the game at this point to my eyes. The drama and emotion attached to the game now overwhelm anything that could be added to it.

    Secondly, I think very much that hardmode messed up the game a ton. It was a good content update, but stuck the game in a dead end. I think terraria could do very well if it had that mode removed, and its content weakened up a bit and spread across new world and biome types. Heck, I never even finished it after not being able to beat any of the hardmode bosses.

    I have to disagree with you on how redigit lost that the game was "his". He may have been overwhelmed in reality by the number of content demands, and other things, but it always seemed to me that he was still taking the game in a direction he wanted it to go. Either way also, the community is not a majority of those people, most of us would hardly care if he did not add requested features (aside bug fixes and the like). Of course, that is only theory, and he may have very well been effected by the comments.

    I really feel out of place commenting on all this, I thought I was done on this forum, and with terraria entirely.
    We have yet to see if that is true, and I'm really not sure what is to come at this point.
     
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  10. Haylo

    Haylo Hornet

    Haters gonna hate. i agree with the first post completely, however ;)
     
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  11. Yoraiz0r

    Yoraiz0r The Wizard

    nope. no hate.
    Klokinator , I bow before your and your amazing wall of text , very well written and reasonable.
     
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  12. Haylo

    Haylo Hornet

    There are indeed people out there who hate Redigit for what hes done, and what hes planning to do.
     
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  13. Yoraiz0r

    Yoraiz0r The Wizard

    I thought you were referring to people who will hate your post , not the contents in the OP post xP
     
  14. Haylo

    Haylo Hornet

    i just googled 'Redigit', just about everything that came up was hate :(
     
  15. iNfiniTe Se7eNz

    iNfiniTe Se7eNz Official Terraria Online Post Whore

    Nice post. Like the title, too.

    All of this chaos (almost said madness, then I would have had to make a Sparta reference), I really don't give a fuck about it. For me, it's all about the game. And the game is fucking amazing. Of course it's imperfect, of course it has unexplored potential, of course it could use changes. But I don't really care. I enjoyed playing it, and it sure as hell was worth a whole lot more than the measly ten dollars I threw at Redigit, whatever his true nature or character or intentions may be. I'd respect the guy even if the new Terraria update is a trollface made out of dirt blocks and clay while removing everything else about the game including characters and worlds. I'd laugh with him, because quite frankly... the lot of us are dicks. That's not to say that Redigit is some saintly figure, of course he has his shortcomings and failures, but again.... I really don't give a fuck.
     
  16. Loki ISP

    Loki ISP Moderator Staff Member

    Let me attempt brevity for once....hold on to your hats kiddies.....

    Haters gonna hate.

    NONE of you know what it is like to have kid....much less a SON as a father....unless you have had one....so, if not, would you kindly remember that?

    I gave Red 10 clams and he lined my pockets with epic times in game with buddies.....and then gave me a whole new list of folks I didn't even know before I saw this game.

    He may have made some mistakes in the execution, but he is back now.....so dwell in the past or focus forward.

    Oh yeah....one more thing.....if you are still holding on to some kind of awful grudge......



    Seriously, embrace it - even if it's still unsure.....why not....just for once....be happy? It feels quite satisfactory.
     
  17. Haylo

    Haylo Hornet

    *nods slowly*
     
  18. Loki ISP

    Loki ISP Moderator Staff Member

    Touche'! Ha....totally missed that the first time...... :cool:
     
  19. Haylo

    Haylo Hornet

    Great minds think alike :rolleyes:
     
  20. PowerCosmic

    PowerCosmic Werewolf

    I wanted to know if you could clarify what exactly you disliked about hardmode? I don't agree with the "dead end" comment as hardmode is an addition to what was the already-perceived "dead end" that was the Underworld.
     

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